11:11, 11 Ноябрь 2020

Максим Топилин — РБК: «Неверно считать пенсионную систему дефицитной»

Глава Минтруда Максим Топилин рассказал РБК, нужна ли реформа пенсионной системы, что делать с низкими пособиями по безработице и как власти собираются бороться c неформальным рынком труда

— Всех волнует судьба российской пенсионной системы. Многие эксперты говорят про необходимость повышения пенсионного возраста. Но в феврале вы сказали, что «время для этого еще не настало». Как вы считаете, когда такое время настанет и настанет ли вообще? Не пора ли браться всерьез за решение проблемы несбалансированности пенсионной системы?

— Мы все-таки должны исходить из каких-то предпосылок. Говорят: «Вот, назрела необходимость решать такую-то проблему». Но разве население стучится в дверь и говорит: «Повысьте пенсионный возраст»? Какие-то группы, молодежь, вот вы сами этого требуете? Вы считаете, что надо повысить пенсионный возраст? Как вы думаете, запрос от общества на это есть?

— Запроса от общества, пожалуй, нет.

— Я понимаю, если бы молодежь сказала: «Мы проанализировали, мы понимаем, что, если сейчас этого не сделать, мы останемся без пенсии вообще». Но ведь этого нет. В вопросе вы ссылаетесь на неких экспертов. Но давайте порассуждаем: кто такой эксперт? Сообщество специалистов его аттестовало, экзамены приняло? Или просто нарекли: это эксперт по пенсионным вопросам, а это эксперт по вопросам организации работы психоневрологических интернатов? Если что-то написал «Иванов, Петров, Сидоров», которые профессиональным сообществом не признаны как эксперты, то их мнение нужно учитывать или нет? У нас есть очень много так называемых экспертов, которые не разбираются в сути вопроса.

— Но многие такие эксперты ведь ориентируются на какие-то объективные данные, хотя бы с точки зрения государственных финансов.

— Если вы поговорите с экспертами, которые готовят предложения по пенсионным реформам, они вам скажут: «У нас нет данных — мы не можем в Пенсионном фонде получить детализированные данные. Дайте нам доступ к персонифицированному учету». Я вас уверяю, что у большинства даже признанных экспертов большой дефицит актуальных данных. К персонифицированному учету невозможно дать доступ — это персональные данные, по ним мы можем дать только агрегированную информацию.

Что касается дефицитности, как вы сказали, пенсионной системы… Я все время пытаюсь объяснить, что есть трансферты Пенсионному фонду в связи с тем, что ПФР выполняет непенсионные функции: администрирует, допустим, материнский капитал, различные выплаты, например региональные социальные доплаты к пенсиям или софинансирование региональных программ по строительству социальных учреждений. По большому счету это не функции Пенсионного фонда, но так как нам нужен оператор, который средства будет доводить до населения, ПФР этим и занимается.

Есть трансферты, которые связаны с тем, что государство приняло решение, что одни работодатели будут платить во внебюджетные государственные фонды меньше других. Например, принимаем решение по территориям опережающего развития: устанавливаем тариф страховых взносов не 22%, а 6%. К тому же по законодательству тариф в Пенсионный фонд составляет 26%, но каждый год правительство продлевает льготу и определяет тариф в размере 22%. То есть работодатели вместо 26% — того тарифа, который должен обеспечить пенсионные права, платят 22%, а это минус почти 500 млрд руб. в годовом обеспечении пенсионной системы. Установили льготные тарифы в ТОРах (территории опережающего развития. — РБК), в свободных экономических зонах, для малого бизнеса, для IT-отрасли. Но пенсии в солидарной системе нужно платить сегодня. Поэтому когда мы принимаем решение о льготировании, автоматически осуществляется трансферт. Если бы не было льгот, то не было бы трансферта Пенсионному фонду, не было бы никакой несбалансированности.

Споры о пенсионном возрасте

Минфин предлагал повысить пенсионный возраст до 65 лет у мужчин и женщин (сейчас мужчины могут выходить на пенсию в 60 лет, женщины — в 55 лет), сообщал в апреле прошлого года РБК. Ведомство хотело проводить повышение постепенно — по 6–12 месяцев в год. По мнению Минфина, в пользу увеличения пенсионного возраста говорит множество экономических, социальных и демографических факторов. В частности, эта необходимость вызвана тем, что средняя ожидаемая продолжительность жизни только с 1995 года выросла на 5,2 года для женщин и на семь лет — для мужчин. Действующий пенсионный возраст в России был установлен в 1932 году.

Альтернативы повышению пенсионного возраста в России нет, считает руководитель Центра стратегических разработок (участвует в написании программы экономических реформ), экс-министр финансов Алексей Кудрин. Он предлагает повысить пенсионный возраст до 63 лет мужчинам и женщинам, растянув это повышение на 8–15 лет.

— Вы хотите сказать, что первичная система пенсионного обеспечения — то есть без этих дополнительных функций ПФР — у нас не является дефицитной?

— Не является. Если вы уберете все трансферты, которые не связаны с выплатой пенсий, и трансферты по льготам, вы увидите, что трансфертов никаких нет. Все обеспечивают страховые взносы. То есть если бы мы не принимали решения о льготных ставках, надбавках советским пенсионерам (валоризация. — РБК), льготных размерах фиксированных выплат для отдельных категорий граждан, приняли бы решение по выводу досрочных пенсий из системы обязательного пенсионного обеспечения, у нас не было бы трансфертов.

Говорить о том, что пенсионная система дефицитная, глубоко не верно. Она дефицитна только в силу наших решений. Дефицит в Пенсионном фонде рукотворный. Он связан не с тем, что пенсионеров больше, чем работающих, или с демографией, или с чем-то еще — он возникает исключительно в силу норм закона. Вот этого многие не понимают, в том числе некоторые эксперты.

— Но у государства в прошлом году, например, не нашлось возможности полностью проиндексировать пенсии…

— Средства на индексацию формируются тогда, когда реальная зарплата растет, то есть инфляция достаточно низкая и отчисления с зарплат растут быстрее инфляции. И это было все предыдущие годы до 2015-го. Мы 1 февраля индексировали пенсии на инфляцию, а 1 апреля доиндексировали на доходы Пенсионного фонда (законом о страховых пенсиях предусмотрена возможность дополнительной индексации пенсий, если рост доходов ПФР превышает инфляцию. — РБК) на 0,5, на 2, на 3% — на столько, сколько Пенсионный фонд получил страховых взносов. Сколько он получил, столько и направляется пенсионерам.

В 2015 году впервые возник разрыв, когда рост доходов недотянул до инфляции. Поэтому пришлось взять немного из федерального бюджета. Тогда впервые получился так называемый инфляционный трансферт. Этот трансферт — небольшой, только здесь можно говорить о том, что есть некая чистая помощь бюджета. Дальше вы знаете, в 2016 году пришлось проиндексировать пенсии только на 4% (по сравнению с инфляцией 12,9%. — РБК). Но в то же время правительство приняло решение поддержать доходы пенсионеров: в январе этого года всем пенсионерам, и работающим, и неработающим, была перечислена единовременная выплата в 5 тыс. руб. По линии ПФР на это потребовалось 221,7 млрд руб. из федерального бюджета. В прошлом году также был принят закон, по которому общее материальное обеспечение пенсионера в 2017 году никак не может быть меньше полученного им годом ранее.

Фото: Владислав Шатило / РБК

«Льгот по страховым взносам быть не должно»

— Вы считаете, что льгот по страховым взносам быть не должно?

— Льгот в страховых тарифах не может быть в принципе. Страховые системы строятся таким образом, что льгот быть не должно. У вас есть льготы по ОСАГО?

— Нет.

— Потому что в голову никому такого не придет. Страховая компания вам же не говорит, что если у вас двое детей, то вам положены льготы. Все прописано в страховой системе: машина с таким-то двигателем, ваш водительский стаж, ваши нарушения. И в нашей системе страхования так же: если у работодателя есть вредные рабочие места, он платит надбавку к страховому тарифу. Если у гражданина нет подтвержденного стажа работы в 15 лет, значит, он не войдет в пенсионную систему, будет получать не страховую пенсию, а социальную, которая ниже страховой.

В ОСАГО нет такого, что в какой-то свободной экономической зоне все освобождены — это даже представить невозможно. А по страховым взносам, в такой же страховой системе, почему-то есть. Это теоретически неверно. И в стратегии долгосрочного развития пенсионной системы записано, что необходимо уйти от льгот. Но мы понимаем: раз мы эти правила игры объявили, их нельзя менять резко. В силу закона эти льготы — временные. Минтруд предлагает, во-первых, не принимать новых решений по льготным ставкам и, во-вторых, не продлевать сроков их действия.

Финансы ПФР

В 2016 году доходы Пенсионного фонда составили 7,6 трлн руб., следует из оперативного отчета Федерального казначейства. При этом лишь чуть больше половины своих доходов ПФР получил от уплаты россиянами страховых взносов — 4,14 трлн руб. Еще 3,36 трлн руб. бюджета фонда составили трансферты из федерального бюджета. В числе этих трансфертов — компенсация выпадающих доходов ПФР от пониженных страховых взносов в ряде отраслей экономики. В 2016 году объем таких выпадающих доходов составил 392 млрд руб.

Доходная часть бюджета ПФР в 2017 году утверждена в размере 8,36 трлн руб., его дефицит, как ожидается, составит 220,4 млрд руб. (он связан с формированием средств для финансирования накопительных пенсий). Общая сумма трансферта из федерального бюджета в этом году составит 3,8 трлн руб., сказано в законе о бюджете фонда. Бюджетная компенсация выпадающих доходов ПФР от пониженных страховых взносов в 2017 году составит почти 434 млрд руб., указано в законе о федеральном бюджете на 2017 год.

— Хорошо, по-вашему, льготы нужно убрать. А в целом что делать с уровнем страховых отчислений? Минфин утверждает, что у нас слишком высокая финансовая нагрузка на труд, из-за чего мы теряем конкурентоспособность. Вы готовы к их снижению?

— Вы готовы выйти к пенсионерам, к бабушкам и спросить: «Бабушки, не слишком ли велика у вас пенсия?» Вы ведь это спрашиваете. Пенсионный фонд формируется из страховых взносов и трансфертов, которые идут из бюджета. Вот этот объем средств нам позволяет сегодня обеспечивать средние пенсии в 13 с небольшим тысяч. Вы по сути говорите: «Не много ли мы берем с работодателя, с учетом всех льгот, чтобы обеспечить пенсию?» Я считаю, что не много. Потому что размер пенсии очень небольшой — 13 тыс., по 2017 году прогнозируем около 14 тыс. руб.

Говорят: «Давайте снизим тариф — вдруг экономика вырастет?» А вдруг не вырастет? Такое решение уже принимали в 2005 году: был тариф 28%, сделали 20%. Думали, что экономика вырастет. Но вырос трансферт из бюджета. До 2005 года трансферта в Пенсионном фонде не было, пенсионная система была самодостаточная.

«Зачем мы платим 850 руб., если люди спокойно находятся в теневом секторе?»

— Давайте перейдем теперь к пособиям по безработице. Несколько лет не менялся их размер. И в прошлом году Минтруд предложил законопроект, в котором предлагалось практически вдвое увеличить пособие, за счет более адресного назначения и за счет ограничения круга получателей. Что с судьбой этого законопроекта?

— Законопроект сейчас досогласовывается, в том числе с Минфином и Минюстом. Мы исходим из того, что за счет перераспределения имеющихся средств, а это около 40 млрд руб. в год, мы можем повысить пособия тем, кто потерял работу, например, по сокращению, и тем, у кого в 12-месячном периоде до обращения в службу занятости был заработок в течение шести месяцев. Повышение возможно, если прекратить выплачивать минимальные пособия в 850 руб. тем, кто долго не работал или вообще никогда не работал.

В законопроекте еще есть ряд элементов, связанных с перерегистрацией в качестве безработного. Есть граждане, которые снимаются с учета, когда срок выплаты истек, через некоторое время опять становятся и получают уже минимальное пособие. Чтобы этого избежать, будут внесены поправки. При этом, безусловно, безработный по-прежнему сможет воспользоваться основными услугами службы занятости: устроиться на временную или постоянную работу, пройти профобучение.

— Сопротивление этому законопроекту есть?

— Пока категорически против профсоюзная сторона РТК (Российская трехсторонняя комиссия по регулированию социально-трудовых отношений. — РБК)  — они считают, что это нарушение прав. Предлагается более жесткая система, но она мне кажется более справедливой: все-таки ресурсы должны направляться на тех, кто реально ищет работу сразу после ее потери и ищет максимально быстро.

— Депутаты Госдумы высказывали опасения, что с повышением пособий вырастет количество «иждивенцев» и возникнет ситуация, при которой бремя выплат для бюджета даже возрастет.

— Минфин опасается как раз того, о чем вы говорите, — насколько можно поднять пособие, чтобы не получить очень сильный приток обращающихся за ним. Это мы пытаемся учесть. Будем искать консенсус — без него мы все равно не сможем пойти в Госдуму. В последнее время мы не принимали решений в условиях, когда профсоюзная сторона резко против, а мы идем напролом…

Мне кажется, законопроект важен с точки зрения даже не возможности увеличения размера пособия, а просто наведения порядка. Зачем мы платим 850 руб., если при этом люди спокойно находятся в теневом секторе? К тому же регионы имеют механизмы по оказанию соцпомощи — можно обратиться в местную соцзащиту, если нет доходов. Только не надо использовать канал безработицы, если вы не ищете работу.

— У нас пособия по безработице — это форма социальной помощи и это расходная часть бюджета. А во многих странах мира это часть страховой системы, которая финансируется за счет конкретного источника. Эта модель в наших условиях реальна?

— В перспективе — да. Большинство стран, вы правильно заметили, живут в страховой системе. И страхование от безработицы у нас было — до 2001 года. Опять-таки это предмет обсуждения с бизнесом и профсоюзами. Профсоюзы однозначно «за». Но вопрос — какой установить тариф? Он не должен быть большим. Мы считали, он мог бы быть приблизительно 1%. Кстати, в этот вид страхования можно было бы упаковать элемент, связанный с выплатой долгов по заработной плате работникам компаний-банкротов. Невыплата зарплат, когда нет конкурсной массы, остается нерешенной проблемой.

— Сами пособия были бы выше текущих?

— 1% страховых взносов с фонда заработной платы — это порядка 200 млрд руб. А у нас на пособия только 40 млрд тратится.

— А когда может случиться переход на модель страхования от безработицы?

— Я думаю, что за пределами 2020–2022 годов. По поводу теоретического построения ни у кого нет вопросов. Работодатели, по крайней мере те, кто находится с нами в партнерских отношениях, участвуют в работе РТК, считают, что страховая модель обеспечения граждан в случае потери работы более правильная, чем существующая. Но вопрос в том, где найти вот эту долю с тем, чтобы обеспечить замещение федеральных денег, которые сейчас идут на пособия, страховыми деньгами.

«Несправедливо, когда одни ничего не платят в общий котел, но в то же время пользуются поликлиниками, школами, детскими садами»

— Многие получатели пособий при этом одновременно заняты в теневом секторе. Минфин предлагает бороться с неформальным рынком труда снижением страховых взносов. Какую альтернативу предлагает Минтруд?

— В 2015 году мы провели большую работу по определению того, сколько же граждан в трудоспособном возрасте не трудятся, за кого не поступают страховые взносы. Исследование показало, что за вычетом пенсионеров, студентов, многодетных семей, инвалидов, военных и приравненных к ним таких людей 15 млн. У нас есть такие инструменты по борьбе с теневой занятостью, как комиссии по снижению неформального рынка труда на уровне регионов и выездные проверки в отношении конкретных работодателей, в которых участвуют в том числе налоговики и инспекторы по труду. За два последних года удалось легализовать 4,5 млн работников — с ними были заключены трудовые договоры. Причем мы отслеживаем по базе Пенсионного фонда, приходят ли взносы за этих работников — то есть не ушли ли они снова в тень. Работа по легализации теневого рынка труда позволила собрать за два года более 27,4 млрд руб. страховых взносов.

— А что в этом году планируете делать на этом направлении? Например, в СМИ много писали о «налоге на тунеядство»…

— На этот год мы ставим себе задачу найти возможные схемы легализации доходов. Мы исходим из того, что гражданин, имеющий скрытый доход, сможет выбрать наиболее удобный для него способ легализации. Это может быть платеж в государственные внебюджетные фонды — ПФР и ФОМС — или что-то другое; пока думаем. Обсуждения ведутся на уровне Минтруда. Будем подключать к ним и экономистов, и налоговиков. Но никаких законопроектов, например, по «налогу на тунеядство», как платеж назвали СМИ, в настоящее время нет.

В Германии, или в Финляндии, или во Франции вы не сможете, оказавшись без работы, сидеть и ни о чем не думать. Сразу возникают вопросы, связанные, например, с медицинской страховкой — кто-то ее должен оплачивать. У нас, к сожалению, пока это законодательство не докручено до конца. Отсюда и возникает возможность работать в сером секторе и ни о чем не беспокоиться. Поэтому постепенно мы приближаемся к тому, что нужно создавать такие — будем говорить, да, дискомфортные — условия для тех, кто считает возможным жить в обществе и быть свободным от него. Это несправедливо, когда одни ничего не платят в общий котел, но в то же время пользуются поликлиниками, школами, детскими садами. Получается, что все эти услуги для них, а также их пенсии и другие соцгарантии, обеспечиваются теми, кто трудится официально.

Налог на тунеядцев

В 2016 году о необходимости введения налога для трудоспособных, но официально нигде не работающих лиц заявил замминистра труда Андрей Пудов, который сообщил, что подобный документ разрабатывается в министерстве и его целью является легализация рынка труда. Информацию в сентябре 2016 года подтвердила вице-премьер Ольга Голодец, которая отметила, что налог будет взиматься с неработающих трудоспособных россиян за использование социальной инфраструктуры. При этом министр Максим Топилин указывал, что в министерстве не разрабатывают законопроект, а только обсуждают подобную идею. Против инициативы Минтруда выступало Министерство экономического развития, а в Минздраве введение регионального налога на неработающих граждан поддержали. «Налог на тунеядцев» реализован в Белоруссии, где в феврале 2017 года граждане из-за этого сбора вышли на крупнейшие за последние годы акции протеста.

«Если не решить вопрос регионализации МРОТ, приравнять его к прожиточному минимуму будет невозможно»

— Уже давно на государственном уровне поставлена задача уравнивания минимального размера оплаты труда (МРОТ) с прожиточным минимумом. Судя по динамике повышения МРОТ, об уравнивании в ближайшей перспективе речь не идет. Когда этого ждать?

— История с уравниванием МРОТ и прожиточного минимума тянется уже 16 лет, которые прошли после принятия в 2001 году Трудового кодекса, где было зафиксировано это обязательство государства. Устанавливать МРОТ, равный федеральному прожиточному минимуму, нерационально, потому что прожиточный минимум в каждом регионе свой. В Ингушетии или Брянской области он составляет 8–9 тыс. руб. в месяц, а на Чукотке — 18 тыс. Если мы установим МРОТ на уровне прожиточного минимума в среднем по стране, в ряде регионов стоимость рабочей силы будет переоценена. Хотя если об этом сказать профсоюзам, они ответят: «Да какое там!» А надо сделать по-другому: МРОТ мы должны сделать де-факто региональным, он должен быть равен прожиточному минимуму в каждом конкретном регионе.

— Нужны же деньги на уравнивание. Это регионы уже будут обязаны платить за уравнивание или это останется обязательством федерального центра?

— Все будет, как и сегодня. Если речь идет о федеральном учреждении, то за уравнивание будет отвечать федеральный бюджет. Если о региональном учреждении, то региональный бюджет. Если о частном предприятии, то это средства работодателя.

Сейчас соотношение МРОТ к прожиточному минимуму составляет почти 70%. Мы предлагаем принять закон, в соответствии с которым все будут знать, что в течение такого-то периода, в такие-то даты МРОТ должен постепенно увеличиваться. Чем всегда работодатели недовольны? Тем, что, допустим, в мае принимается закон о том, что с 1 июля МРОТ увеличивается на энное количество процентов, и они не могут спрогнозировать и подготовиться к изменениям, из-за чего неожиданно вырастают издержки. Поэтому мы и предлагаем договориться на федеральном уровне со всеми партнерами о понятной линейке уравнивания МРОТ и прожиточного минимум: допустим, с 1 июля 2018 года соотношение должно быть 80%, с 1 июля 2019-го — 90%, с 1 июля 2020 года — 100%.

Фото: Владислав Шатило / РБК

— Но региональные власти, особенно на севере, боятся, что, если обязательство уравнивать МРОТ и прожиточный минимум передадут в регионы, они лишатся северных надбавок, а это существенная статья бюджета.

— Прожиточный минимум отражает все: и цены, и коэффициенты. Что такое районный коэффициент? Это то, что отражается в ценах. Но мы не трогаем районные коэффициенты. Чтобы успокоить наших социальных партнеров и регионы, мы подготовили разъяснения, в которых четко написано: не допускается снижение северных надбавок, районных коэффициентов и общего уровня заработной платы в связи с возможным изменением конструкции МРОТ. Наше предложение касается исключительно МРОТ и его графика уравнивания с прожиточным минимумом. Если не решить вопрос регионализации МРОТ, то приравнять МРОТ к прожиточному минимуму будет невозможно.

— Это пока только ваша позиция или консолидированное мнение правительства?

— Мы обсуждали эту тему и с Минэкономразвития, и с Минфином. У нас нет завизированных законопроектов по МРОТ, потому что мы еще работаем с партнерами, пытаемся разъяснить нашу позицию. Но фундаментальных разногласий с федеральными ведомствами нет. Разве что Минфин может сказать, мол, давайте чуть-чуть сдвинем график уравнивания. И работодатели могут попросить провести уравнивание, к примеру, не к 2021 году, а к 2022-му. Работодатели могут настаивать на более мягких темпах уравнивания, а профсоюзы — на более жестких.

«Почему, если за забастовку выступают 20 или 30% работников, оставшиеся сотрудники должны страдать?»

— Эксперты из Центра социально-экономических реформ постоянно констатируют повышение количества трудовых конфликтов. Трудовые инспекции сейчас в состоянии адекватно реагировать для помощи работникам в их взаимоотношениях с работодателями, если есть какие-то конфликтные ситуации? Или все-таки нужно, может быть, реформировать этот институт.

— Мы отслеживаем конфликты. Роструд и Федерация независимых профсоюзов России ведут мониторинг в постоянном режиме. По данным Роструда, в прошлом году было зафиксировано 116 протестных акций, в том числе 13 забастовок. Профсоюзы дают несколько иные предварительные цифры — 167 социально-трудовых конфликтов. Основная причина возникновения — полная невыплата заработной платы (41% случаев). Далее идут сокращение или увольнение работников — 13%, снижение уровня оплаты труда — 11%, ликвидация предприятий — 8%.

Численность инспекторов по труду не такая большая. Действительно, не всегда получается оперативно реагировать на обращения, тем более что их очень много: правосознание наших граждан растет, а вместе с этим растет и количество жалоб.

В том числе поэтому мы сейчас переходим на так называемый риск-ориентированный надзор. Недавно вышло постановление правительства, согласно которому трудовые инспекции войдут в перечень тех надзорных органов, которые переходят на риск-ориентированные технологии. Это означает, что работа инспекций должна строиться исходя из рисков, которые нужно прогнозировать и предотвращать.

— А чем это поможет инспекциям? У них же не появится больше ресурсов.

— Запускаются новые схемы работы, которые позволяют Роструду экономить ресурсы. Например, на портале «Онлайнинспекция.рф» работодатель может пройти самопроверку. Роструд размещает так называемые опросные листы для проверок, которые легко заполнять. С 2013 года проведено 185,9 тыс. самопроверок. Такая технология сокращает время инспекторов, а для работодателей это возможность избежать штрафных санкций. По оценке Роструда, работодатели, которые устранили выявленные в ходе самопроверки нарушения, оградили себя от штрафов на 4,4 млрд руб.

Роструд проводит ревизию устаревших нормативных актов, по которым проходят проверки. Есть акты, датированные даже 1925 годом, которые до сих пор предъявляются работодателю к исполнению. Но этих норм в российском законодательстве давно нет, поэтому разработано постановление правительства, которое будет издано в ближайшее время, — оно отменяет более 50 советских нормативных актов в трудовой сфере. Это делается для того, чтобы не нагружать работодателя ненужной бумажной работой и чтобы на него не налагались санкции за несоблюдение устаревших норм. И, конечно, это скажется и на времени проведения проверки.

Другая задача — чтобы инспектор имел электронную программу проверки, которая не позволяет ему отклоняться от заданий. Ведь на практике как бывает: какой-то закон увидели, какой-то нормативный акт вспомнили и предъявили требования, а надо, чтобы инспектор работал в рамках своей проверки, по четкому перечню документов. И электронная программа не позволит ему за рамки проверки выйти. Внедрение проверочных листов в работу инспекторов труда запланировано на этот год.

— Не думали о том, что нужно, особенно в кризисное время, давать возможность работникам законно проводить забастовки, чтобы те могли выплеснуть свой негатив?

— По моему мнению, в России приемлемая конструкция входа в забастовку. Забастовка может быть, когда на ней настаивает большинство коллектива. Почему, если за забастовку выступают 20 или 30% работников, оставшиеся 70% сотрудников должны страдать? Некоторые требуют забастовку солидарности, а на каком основании? Есть конфликт на конкретном предприятии — почему кто-то должен к нему присоединяться? Такие темы вбрасываются отдельными структурами, в том числе политическими. Мы к их заявлениям очень настороженно относимся. Серьезных предложений по упрощению процедуры забастовки к нам не поступало, есть только разговоры. Не надо забывать, что забастовка — это крайняя мера при разрешении коллективного трудового спора. Законодательство устанавливает ряд обязательных примирительных процедур, предшествующих объявлению забастовки.

— А сама по себе конфликтность на предприятиях увеличилась в последнее время или нет?

— Я бы не сказал. В 2016 году были признаки увеличения конфликтности, в основном из-за роста задолженности по зарплате. В целом в прошлом году большинство конфликтов (94%) завершилось полным или частичным удовлетворением требований работников.

Одна из тенденций 2016 года — снижение средней продолжительности социально-трудовых конфликтов по сравнению с позапрошлым годом, в том числе по причине невыплаты зарплаты. За прошлый год благодаря вмешательству инспекторов по труду 958 тыс. работников получили в общей сложности 22,9 млрд руб. задержанной заработной платы и причитающихся компенсаций

— А в этом году проблемы с задолженностью нет? В Забайкалье, например, еще недавно все было очень неблагополучно, если смотреть на выплаты зарплат тем же учителям.

— По данным Росстата, за 2016 год задолженность по стране снизилась почти на 0,9 млрд руб. Но нас это не успокаивает. Будем совершенствовать законодательство — такое поручение председателя правительства у нас есть. К 15 апреля мы должны подготовить соответствующие предложения. Что касается Забайкалья, вопрос решается. Я несколько раз в месяц общаюсь на эту тему с губернатором, и такой ситуации, как была в прошлом году, в 2017-м быть не должно.​

Максим Топилин родился в 1967 году. Учился в Московском институте народного хозяйства им. Г.В. Плеханова. С 1988 года на работе в НИИ труда, с 1994 года — в аппарате правительства РФ. В 2001 году премьер-министр Михаил Касьянов назначил Топилина заместителем министра труда и социального развития. В 2004 году Топилин возглавил вновь созданный подведомственный министерству орган — Роструд. В 2005 году премьер-министр Михаил Фрадков назначил Топилина главным государственным инспектором труда, а в 2008 году Топилин вернулся в Министерство здравоохранения и социального развития, став заместителем министра. В 2012 году Топилина назначили главой Министерства труда и социальной защиты Российской Федерации.

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